Comments on: If you try, you just might find that you get what you need.

By: Punning Pundit

Punning Pundit — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:39:49 +0000

I see it as a binding moral principle precisely because I do not trust a government to tell the difference between “I do not like those foreign leaders” and “those foreign leaders have resources I want”.

While I tend to agree with you that I _hate_ to see a group of thugs running a country, I think history is pretty clear that leaders looking for a fight have an easy time magnifying Saddam into Hitler– and then the war drums start.

A decent respect for Westphalian sovereignty would have kept us out of Iraq– and many countries out of much trouble. Ways of dealing with thugs in a manner that doesn’t invite contempt require a new framework– not a tossing of the old. And that conversation might be worth another post entirely…

By: Maniakes

Maniakes — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:58:05 +0000

I see Westphalian sovereignty as practical rule of thumb, not as a binding legal or moral principle. There are binding moral principles that restrict interferance in the internal affairs of other countries (most notably the principle of self-governance), but Westphalian sovereignty goes further than that and implies that if a group of thugs seize power in a country they have the right to do whatever they want to that country, a conclusion I find troubling.

By: Punning Pundit

Punning Pundit — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:49:29 +0000

I was being cute. The treaty of Westphalia codified the principles of sovereignty– which is the extent of my point.

By saying “principles” of Westphalia, I am getting around the whole “treaty” aspect of it. We may not have signed the right paperwork, but for 500 years it’s been a basic idea that dictating the behavior of a government vis a vii it’s own population is a very unfriendly act.

By: HeruFeanor

HeruFeanor — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:46:38 +0000

I would like clarification on your reference to the Treaty of Westphalia. While I generally agree with your point in this post, that we should indeed talk to Iran at this point without precondition, I can’t see how the tenants of an ancient peace treaty between Spain and the Holy Roman Empire applies to diplomacy between the U.S. and Iran.

By: HeruFeanor

HeruFeanor — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:43:04 +0000

I’d like some clarification on your reference to the Treaty of Westphalia. While I generally agree with what you’re saying (my support of Obama wouldn’t make much sense otherwise), I’m really not sure that this treaty is relevant.

By: Maniakes

Maniakes — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:41:33 +0000

I was not aware that the US or Iran had ratified the Treaty of Westphalia.